EP/GP - New DKP System

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EP/GP - New DKP System

Postby Osebo » Tue Jan 18, 2011 9:42 am

We use EPGP as our loot system for official raids. If you want to know the scary number-related details, see here, or read on!

The essence of the system is two sets of points ,Effort Points (EP) and Gear Points (GP). Your Priority (PR) is simply your total effort points divided by your total gear points.

Effort Points (EP) are awarded as we raid, to mark the effort of each member during both farm and progression raids. EP is awarded as follows:

* Being on time for raids - 150 - Awarded at 19:15 server time to those in the raid group. Also awarded at 19:35 to reserves who are still online and available, even if not required in the final group.
* Killing farm bosses - 350 - Awarded for all farm boss kills. Also awarded to reserves still online and available at the time of a kill.
* Killing progress bosses - 450 - Awarded for all first kills for Sworn on a boss. Also awarded to reserves still online and available at the time of a kill.
* Wiping on progression bosses - 450 per complete hour of wipes. Also awarded to reserves online and available for the full hour.
* Being present until the end of raid - 250 - Also awarded to reserves online and available at the end of the raid.
* There may be additional awards from the management team for anything we think warrants an additional bonus!

Gear Points (GP) are awarded whenever you win a piece of loot. The value of the item depends on the slot that it is equipped in, as shown below.

* Chest / Legs / Helm = 1000
* Belt / Boots / Gloves / Shoulders / Bracers = 750
* Rings / Neck / Cloak = 500
* 2H Weapons = 2000 or 1000 (dual-wielders)
* 1H Weapons = 1500 or 1000 (dual-wielders)
* Offhand / Shield = 500
* Trinkets = 2000

Loot is distributed based on Priority. As mentioned earlier, this is simply EP divided by GP to give Priority (PR). As you can see, winning more loot (and thus being awarded more GP), your PR goes down, compared to someone with the same number of EP. As you earn more EP without getting loot, your PR goes up. This, in a nutshell, is the balance of the system.

Additionally, there are some other balancing features:

* 10% Decay on EP/GP every week. This essentially keeps earned EP and GP "current" as after 3 months any gained EP/GP will have decayed to negligible value. This helps to avoid a situation where someone takes a long break and returns with very high PR to win a coveted piece of a newly killed boss!
* BaseGP: 150. Everyone has a constant 150GP + whatever GP they've spent, to avoid dividing by zero! Also sets a default PR of 10 for those eligible for loot (see below).
* Minimum EP: 1500. While you are not explicitly excluded from loot if you have yet to earn 1500 EP as a new member, your PR will not be considered when assigning loot. If no-other raid member is interested in the item in question, then you will be awarded the loot and the appropriate GP. At the very beginning of an expansion where EPGP is reset, loot will be decided by a random roll (completed automatically within the addon, again see below) to get the ball rolling.
Your EP/GP will be visible in the Officer's Note by your name in the guild tab at all times. Let us know if you can't see this.

All of this number crunching will be handled through an addon. As such, everyone in the raid NEEDS to download EPGPLootmaster. Once you've loaded up WoW, in the character screen open up your addons and DISABLE the "EPGP Lootmaster - ML" addon whilst ENABLING "EPGP Lootmaster - Core".

When a piece of loot drops - a window will pop-up giving you the following options:

* Mainspec - This is to indicate an upgrade for you main raiding specialisation.
* Minor Upgrade - This is to indicate an upgrade for you main raiding specialisation, but that you would be willing to pass to another member who rolls mainspec (either because it is only a small upgrade, to warforged for example, or a sidegrade, or just because you want to let someone else have it!).
* Offspec - This is to indicate that the piece is an upgrade for your hybrid raiding specialisation (if applicable).
* Hope over reality - This is the equivalent of minor upgrade for offspec rolls.
* Transmog - If you really don't want to see the pretty pink dress disenchanted into dust, feel free to roll for transmogrification! Note you will only receive the item if none of the above rolls were made.
* Pass - To indicate that you do not want the item in question at all.

Simply click the box that applies for each piece. If in doubt, press anyway, as the Master Looter will make the decision based on the priority rules above. You can also whisper the ML if you have questions or are unsure. It will automatically pass your roll if you cannot use the item. The ML will then get a list of rollers with the highest Priority at the top. After a quick check (in case the paladin accidentally rolled on the cloth belt rather than the plate one for example) the ML will assign the piece to the winner. GP is awarded, and the system updates automatically.

We will be handling offspec loot slightly differently with the changes associated with Flex raiding. In the event of offspec roll conflict, management will make decisions on a case by case basis (depending on item type, frequency of use of hybrid, priority and such). This may make the loot process take a little longer in the short term, but it will be necessary to be fair with our loot assignment for hybrid roles. In some rare cases, offspec roles may overtake minor-upgrade roles if necessary. We will be entirely transparent with our reasoning should this occur!

This shouldn't need to be said, but for complete clarity: The Master Looter component of this addon is for Management use only. Although only the ML in a raid has loot distribution powers, anyone caught manipulating the add-on in an attempt to abuse the system will be kicked from <Sworn> immediately.

If you have any questions, please ask a member of the management team. Be sure to have the EPGP Lootmaster addon downloaded with the Master Looter part disabled by your first raid!
Last edited by Osebo on Fri Apr 22, 2011 10:56 am, edited 10 times in total.
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Re: EP/GP - New DKP System

Postby Halasuwah » Tue Jan 18, 2011 9:55 am

Ose can you define "on time" for raids please? is it there at 1900 for invites, or there ready at 1930 for the first pull?

No one likes waiting around of course, and a good idea to reward peopel for being on time, but i know i always cut it close to the bone due to trains and the fact that 1900 server is actually very early UK time for those not finishing work til the now tradional 17.30 UK time? its 30 mins to get home

I am only ever going to be just prior to 1930 Server having logged out at the insatnce and repaired and with consumabels.

If that means i dont get 150 points a raid, thats ok (we will just have to kill extra things when i am there!) i just dont want to find myself black marked as a late commer and deknighted!
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Re: EP/GP - New DKP System

Postby Wemya » Tue Jan 18, 2011 10:04 am

on the first read it sounds pretty complicated. But if the math is handled by the addon this sounds like a good system.
I've got a question about the on time for raids part. Is being on time for a raid concidered being invited prior to 19:30 and ready for the pull at 19:30, or prior to that around 19:00 allowing for a 30 min "get ready, get to location" time?

*edit* seems hala asked the same thing before I posted my reply :P
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Re: EP/GP - New DKP System

Postby ikaite » Tue Jan 18, 2011 10:13 am

Wicked has been using this system For more than a year and we have found it to be reliable and very stable. can only say YHEE especially for our Management team and the Master looter things will be easier for you all.

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Re: EP/GP - New DKP System

Postby Thorrick » Tue Jan 18, 2011 10:39 am

So if its wipe week you lose 10% of your total effort, because there was no loot to spend it on. Or when there is a week were there is no loot for you that week(this is unlikely since there is 5 piece of loot per boss, but it could happen), you also lose 10% because you could not spend it.

Now I know you will earn more then you lose, but you still get stab in the back because you could not spend EP that week, but you wanted that item because you have a gear list and had the EP to spend it.
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Re: EP/GP - New DKP System

Postby Thanatros » Tue Jan 18, 2011 10:53 am

You actually lose very little if you had a bad week for drops. Others will have picked up some loot and your PR will most likely still increase (even with the 10% decay) from the week. The benefits of the system are to induce people to gather upgrades when they can, rather than wait months for those end wing special pieces and snap them all up. Yes there will be weeks where no upgrades drop for you, but that is beyond our control ;)
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Re: EP/GP - New DKP System

Postby Shadram » Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:00 am

You don't lose anything. Everyone is scaled down by 10% on a weekly basis, regardless of activity, meaning priority order (the only thing that matters in this system) is not affected. The decay applies to both EP and GP, and since it's EP/GP that determines priority, a bit of maths will show that your priority value is not affected by the decay (20/10 = 18/9). It exists purely to stop the numbers getting insanely big.

If you need more convincing, I can give more several reasons why the system needs a decay: It prevents inflation and means new Sworn members have a chance to catch up. It makes the most recent raids have a bigger impact on priority over raids that happened several months ago. It discourages hoarding of points, and encourages people to bid on even minor upgrades. It also means you won't need to reset the system every time a new raid tier is released: the EP earned in the previous raid tier gives the priority at the start of the new tier, but it's impact diminishes quickly, so that effort in the new tier takes over. If you take a break from raiding, you'll have less points when you come back, meaning those who have been raiding will have priority over you, which should absolutely be the case.

Overall? Don't worry about it, you'll see that it's not really a bad thing once you get started. I've done the maths, it's sound. The message this system gives is "Put all your efforts into Sworn, and you will be rewarded." Which is precisely why this system was chosen.

PS: I think I saw somewhere that the "on time" bonus is applied at 19:15 to everyone who's in the raidgroup and online at that time. I might be wrong, though, Osebo can confirm.
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Re: EP/GP - New DKP System

Postby Shadram » Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:04 am

Thanatros wrote:...your PR will most likely still increase (even with the 10% decay)


It WILL increase. Your GP will stay fixed, your EP will go up, so EP/GP will be bigger at the end of that week. As stated above, the decay does not change your priority value at all.

EDIT: More maths, for those that are interested:
The other big reason for decay is to ensure that the system stays relevant after several weeks. Consider if your EP is about 4000 and your GP is around 2000, so your priority is 2. You get a drop, worth 1000 points. Your priority is now 4/3, or 1.67, a significant change.
Now imagine that we didn't apply a decay. After a few months of raiding, your EP might be something like 50000 and your GP 48000: the same difference as the first example, but your priority is 1.04. Even worse, you take that same drop for 1000 points, and your priority is now 1.02, barely any change at all.
The short version of this is that if you don't apply a decay, and the values for loot and effort rewards remain fixed and are both gained at a similar rate, everyone's priority will tend towards 1. Definitely not a desired effect, especially since new members will be bouncing between 2 and 4 for their PR score, which I'm pretty sure you'd have a problem with. ;)
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Re: EP/GP - New DKP System

Postby Tallore Falanaar » Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:05 am

Why does off-spec stuff cost Gear-Points?

We've had it costing dkp in the past and it just meant stuff was left rotting on bosses, then later when we needed someone to respec and do something else they'd do the new role with a gear-set that could have been a whole lot better had it not cost dkp.

Seems silly penalizing people for trying to be versatile, especially when a lot of people do it just to help the group out.

I also agree with Thor that the decay is blegh, getting screwed over by rng isnt fun. Isnt resetting the points every gear-tier as we did before enough?

EDIT: Okay I understand the decay now.

EDIT II: Also if you dont put the epgp_lootmaster_ml in your addon folder you wont have to disable it later (and forget >.>) in the little addon list.

Hmmm. I wonder if I could be called smart for having learned to work around my own stupidity. *ponders*

EDIT III: Also how much do trinkets cost? Dont see them in the list.
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Re: EP/GP - New DKP System

Postby Shadram » Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:17 am

I believe that all tanks and healers and hybrids have been told that they need an offspec set for raiding in Cataclysm, so you'll still be competitive with others rolling for that gear. Again, I'll be corrected if I'm wrong. :P The other thinking is that, for this first tier, heroic gear is fine for your off-spec, at least early on. You won't be claiming off-spec gear at this point anyway, since the main specs will be taking it. It's when you (and the people who are main specced in your off spec) are mostly main-spec-geared up from the tier that you'll start collecting your off-spec upgrades, giving you something to spend your points on before they decay to nothing. ;) (Joke! That won't happen so long as you keep raiding!)
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Re: EP/GP - New DKP System

Postby Tallore Falanaar » Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:55 am

I completely disagree.

First of all, not all hybrids share gear only with other hybrids.

If an elemental shaman maintains a resto-set, she'll then be at a disadvantage for non-armor gear because she'll be competing against mages/warlocks, who have no other gear-sets.

Note: Yes, I'm aware there's spirit->hit talents and that some elem gear can thus also double as resto. Simple truth is though that you need a lot more spirit as a healer than you need hit as a dpser. Hit-cap is 1734? I'm on ~2200 spirit and I still want more.

Second, not all healers are created equal. (I think all tanks /are/ created equal in that their dps-sets dont share gear with their tank-sets, but I could be wrong. If so feel free to enlighten ;) )

Shadow, Balance, Elemental. These all have spirit->hit talents which could well make parts of their healing-set also double up as dps-set. Enhancement, feral and ret share no gear whatsoever with resto/holy. Leaving them at a disadvantage when competing with the other healers.

I don't see any benefits of this rule whatsoever.

It also seems a bit odd that the system itself compensates dual-wielders for the extra item they need by making it cheaper for them and then turns around and makes hybrids pay a lot more for maintaining /their/ gear.

Speaking of... Shouldnt one-handed weapons be 750 for dualwielders? Or 1k for non-dualwielders?
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Re: EP/GP - New DKP System

Postby Osebo » Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:08 pm

The 150 "On Time" bonus is for those who are ready to go at 19:15. This isn't meant to be a slap in the face for people stuck in traffic, it's an encouragment for people to not be on alts till 19:30.

The decay has been covered. But remember you don't "spend" EP, it only goes down via this decay. As has been mentioned, it applies to everyone. Which is as fair as it gets :)

The 50% cost for off-specc is not something we were totally convinced by. We may decide to opt for gold for off-specc instead, assuming people are reliable in paying it.

EDIT: I missed some points. Main weapons are always one of the most expensive items in any DKP system, due to them being gloriously stat-filled and so on. Updated the price, it should indeed be 750 for a one hander.
Trinkets are 2000.

Updated the first post to reflect this.
Last edited by Osebo on Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: EP/GP - New DKP System

Postby Haiko » Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:21 pm

WOOOHOOO, EEEEE-PEEEE-GEEEE-PEEEE <3

The addons you mentioned generate their own GP value based on the ilvl and indeed the slot, so changing them in to rounded off numbers only grants the lootmaster with more work, without it actually changing the percentages of the prio. So I'm not sure why to deviate from it.

And at Wicked (and before that in Archaic Legion) we use 5% total GP cost for offspec pieces, so we don't discourage from taking a small upgrade in offspec whilst getting a lot of points so one loses prio on mainspec.
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Re: EP/GP - New DKP System

Postby Tallore Falanaar » Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:35 pm

Apologies for nitpicking but:

- Are hunters considered "dual-wielders" on two-handed weapons? It seems only fair if ranged weapons are cheaper for non-hunters.

- With the current prices single-minded Fury warriors have to pay less for weapons than Titan's Grip warriors. Is this intended?
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Re: EP/GP - New DKP System

Postby Haiko » Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:42 pm

As you can read: * Ranged = 1500 or 500 (If it isn't your primary weapon)
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Re: EP/GP - New DKP System

Postby Thanatros » Tue Jan 18, 2011 1:01 pm

Single minded fury warriors will ONLY be against DW Death Knights for most of the strength one handers (exception being Hit/Mastery types that paladin and warrior tanks might want); whereas TG compete with Retri, Arms and all 3 DK specs. Therefore it should in fairness be more expensive to acquire both Two Handers (you can argue with this, seeing as there are other pieces that do not have cross class competiton, such as a healy plate chest, which carry the same cost as say a cloth chest. However weapons are always the largest upgrade, and essentially DW is paying the same cost as other users of the weapon type in both cases to get the upgrade. The same for hunters as they compete with ferals for the stat sticks. )

Minor note, we seem to be missing gloves from the price list unless i'm going blind :P
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Re: EP/GP - New DKP System

Postby Dionius » Tue Jan 18, 2011 1:39 pm

Can't see wands on the list either.
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Re: EP/GP - New DKP System

Postby Osebo » Tue Jan 18, 2011 1:44 pm

Than is doing a great job of being my PA and replying to these :P It is indeed intentional that warriors are paying the same price for 1H weapons as other 1H weapon users.

Gloves and wands are indeed missing. Will add those tonight.
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Re: EP/GP - New DKP System

Postby Halasuwah » Tue Jan 18, 2011 1:48 pm

isnt wand a non primary ranged weapon? (500 points) it goes in that slot and its barley used other then as a stat stick?

(gold for off spec might be nice given how in Wrath we had a lot of people off speccing in raids its clearly a good thign for peopel to be able to do that) - assumign the thread wanted opinions, if it didnt redact this sentence!
but seems a system thast easy enough to understand lets see how it goes!
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Re: EP/GP - New DKP System

Postby Exoticazz » Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:14 pm

Nice, i like EP/GP.

Btw isn't there also a built in in epgp that you loose both ep and gp gained more than 3 months ago ? At least it was when i used the system, besides the decay. Which is good imo, cause it means you use points gathered recently. It's indeed good to use a base gp to start with, and a minimum ep to get (seen it been abused without those rules)

And it stimulates people to use items if they are upgrades since the ep spend will decay, but rewards people as well who did not get something because the ep/gp stays the same after decay, but you gained ep and no gp so you do get higher prio.
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